tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774506.post114374508596053756..comments2023-11-03T07:31:49.573-04:00Comments on Liberal Citizen: Immigration: We Wanted a Labor Force, But Human Beings CameGeorgehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09253150846911854844noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774506.post-1144525241426765762006-04-08T15:40:00.000-04:002006-04-08T15:40:00.000-04:00GK,I didn't think immigration policy and the fate ...GK,<BR/><BR/>I didn't think immigration policy and the fate of the 12 million undocumented immigrants are two separate issues in the sense of reforming a failed system. They're here & undocumented because of a failed policy. We want them here to do certain jobs with less wages, but we are not ready to be honest and recognize them. And, when we given them a legal path, we make it so long and expensive that deters most people from applying. I'm amazed that no one is talking about the AMNESTY we've already given to those Americans & American businesses that have benefited from this labor pool.<BR/><BR/>As you say, people will flow like capital to places for the best return possible. But, again, WE skew the game here by being hypocritical with our immigration policies. <BR/><BR/>I often ponder about "reality"... You say, "political borders are ficticious" and should disappear. If enough people believe in having those borders stay put, then those people live in a certain "reality" or, they create their own reality and act based on it. Like the 44% of American who believe that Jesus will return to Earth in their lifetime! Likewise if you believe in the end of times and Rapture is around the corner! YOU may not believe it, but if a critical mass believes it, it affects public policy and forges a sense of identity. I ask you, why haven't these borders disappeared?<BR/><BR/>I agree that the socio-economic conditions in Mexico should be improved and this would make the US much less attractive for emigration. But, the world isn't moving at the same pace, nor humanity is willing to share the resources available more equitably. Worse, I don't think the gap between the rich & the poor is shrinking. Humans today live in different ..centuries!<BR/><BR/>On a humanitarian level, most "illegals" have lived in the US for many, many years, so essentially they're part of the country even if their first language isn't English (as all the non-British immigrants that came before them). We can't send them back, nor should we keep them in the shadows, and thus maintain a bad status quo. Yes, if we don't fix our immigration system in a few years we'll have another 12 million undocumented workers. Any possitive change begins with open, honest debate, and with an open mind. I just don't see this happening right now.<BR/><BR/>Often it's very hard to convince people of the necessity to do something for a long term solution/gain, because they only see what's infront of their nose. Education is one example--spend now, see the benefits later.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your input.Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09253150846911854844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774506.post-1144514152911257642006-04-08T12:35:00.000-04:002006-04-08T12:35:00.000-04:00Andros, It seems to me that your post fails t...Andros,<BR/> It seems to me that your post fails to make an important distinction between immigration policy in general and the fate of the 11-12 million that are already in the US. Suppose the US decides to naturalize the whole 11 million tomorrow then what? Unless we deal with the issue of immigration honestly we will have to revisit the problem of the undocumented periodically. The same reasons that make capital flow to where it is most productive apply to labour, humans will always seek a place that offers a better opportunity and that above all is less corrupt and respects their human rights more than the place that they are at. <BR/>Ultimately the solution is clear, political borders are ficticous in the first place and should go the way of the do-do bird. Is such a solution realistic? The unfortunate answer is in the negative. Societies that are at the same level of development can erase the borders without creating a major flow in either capital or human resources, a good example is the EU and US-Canada. It is not clear though that benefits to some will outweigh losses to others if residents of a large less developed area are allowed to move into a smaller and a more developed area. The North needs to work much harder in order to bring about a much more equitable global distribution of income. But none of this will happen as long as we look at the mission of hastening economic development and eliminating poverty as charitable work instead of the fulfillment of the rights of the underprivileged.<BR/><BR/>What to do meanwhile? Sadly, I do not see a meaningful solution. The US has to deal with the human problem that the 11 million undocumented workers pose by offering them the opportunity to aquire the US citizenship but the same problem will haunt us every decade or so unless we can help improve substantially the living conditions in Mexico.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774506.post-1144174177054934982006-04-04T14:09:00.000-04:002006-04-04T14:09:00.000-04:00This is an interesting poll I came across, regard...This is an interesting <A HREF="http://www.immigrationforum.org/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=812" REL="nofollow"> poll</A> I came across, regarding the attitudes of immigrants and US citizenship.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774506.post-1143826470074244422006-03-31T12:34:00.000-05:002006-03-31T12:34:00.000-05:00A most excellent point Elizabeth: that the legal w...A most excellent point Elizabeth: that the legal way is like descending into the abyss, swim in the dark for a very long time while holding your breath.... Not practical. The legal code & the bureaucracy must change. <BR/><BR/>I know people who have had a good chance of getting their papers but they preferred to remain illegal either because they didn't have the money to pursue this for many years and/or thought it'd expose them to the danger of deportation. Likewise, any proposal that doesn't include immediate permanent residency & a SECURE path to citizenship will NOT bring out the majority of the 12 million illegal immigrants--most of which are already "citizens" [as Samantha pointed out--read her comment above].Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09253150846911854844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774506.post-1143816135473765282006-03-31T09:42:00.000-05:002006-03-31T09:42:00.000-05:00Andros- you are a godsent! Thank you for talking ...Andros- you are a godsent! Thank you for talking about this!<BR/><BR/>The reason people don't come here legally is because THEY CAN'T! Your drugs-from-Canada analogy is an excellent one. The system of processing potantial immigrants and issuing visas and greencards is archaic! Navigating the USCIS requires either a healthy knowledge of the laws or enough money to pay for a lawyer who does. Making more laws will NOT make the system better, easier or more efficient. It's too complicated already! The issue at hand is not "creating a path to citizenship," the real problem is the legal code. There are paths, they are just too covered in brambles to follow. The expenses involved are tremendous and the built in contradictions are frustrating ad nauseum. The laws need to be streamlined, not added to! As you suggested, it would be better to leave the laws alone, until next year when there are (hopefully) more reasonable and humane people in congress.<BR/>Thank you for your insights!Lizzyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13112642155467775373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774506.post-1143778815155825052006-03-30T23:20:00.000-05:002006-03-30T23:20:00.000-05:00Many of those South of the Border immigrants are a...Many of those South of the Border immigrants are also very religious, no surprise that the Catholic Church is delighted to have them as Church attendance has dropped. In NYC the Archdiocese just announced that it will close 41 parishes & schools.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774506.post-1143765959007820252006-03-30T19:45:00.000-05:002006-03-30T19:45:00.000-05:00I also think there shouldn't be any bad law now un...I also think there shouldn't be any bad law now under present conditions. The House version of the immigration bill is atrocious, so much that any compromise in conference committee with the Senate version will not result in anything good.<BR/><BR/>The "nativists" use firebombs to participate in this important dialogue. In addition to fear, they try to excite their conservative base by being against "amnesty for the lawbreakers." We've already given amnesty to the American employers who have benefitted from hard working and inexpensive labor force. We've already gotten paid from the illegals in the tune of $9 billion a year. Because this money can't be traced back to individuals it has padded the public coffers without ever have to be paid as retirement benefits. By making people legal, the contributions will definitely increase too.<BR/><BR/>Amnesty isn't a bad word to me. If can remedy a problem. Some of the proposals mentioned would never bring out of the underground the 9 million illegal immigrants because there would be no real incentives for them to do so. They are here, they're integrated (as most have been here for over 5 years) and won't leave. They are everywhere and behave just like any other citizen. They are citizens in practice but not technically. We have to acknowledge this fact and recognize them as such. What is the true test of citizenship anyway???!!!!<BR/><BR/>Before you answer, think how many Americans would pass that test today...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774506.post-1143764927024261342006-03-30T19:28:00.000-05:002006-03-30T19:28:00.000-05:00Illegal aliens have paid a high price already. Can...Illegal aliens have paid a high price already. Can you imagine how it is to constantly look over your shoulder? Many try to raise families while being exploited by employers, while may not be able to obtain a driver licence, not complain to the police if beaten up, raped, or abused? If going through all of this doesn't make them leave, they most likely don't have a better choice anyway. I don't know but I don't like seeing people kept illegal for the benefit of employers and American consumers.<BR/><BR/>Every person who works and doens't engage in criminal acts is also a consumer and a contributor to society in many ways. The take up jobs and they generate jobs by spending their money. In those sectors that there is plenty of labor supply no employer should hire illegals to keep his wages down and make more profit. If there aren't people who want to, say, pick fruits and meatpack, then bring in immigrants, legally.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774506.post-1143763415227839772006-03-30T19:03:00.000-05:002006-03-30T19:03:00.000-05:00Randi Rhodes had a good segment today on immigrati...Randi Rhodes had a good segment today on immigration. Many of the talking heads don't know what they're talking about, and many of them aren't nice at all. Yes, it is about being nice and decent. How can they say, we don't care, they broke the law they should be deported?!!! All of our parents (except the native American Indians) came over, changed the rules of immigration, brought in by force slaves, exploited every minority group, etc.... Come on, we need some sensitivity here. America has benefited by immigration while it has treated the poor and the hungry with disdain.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774506.post-1143752571896467632006-03-30T16:02:00.000-05:002006-03-30T16:02:00.000-05:00What a great example of the situation when a law c...What a great example of the situation when a law contradicts reality.... The millions of Americans who are forced to buy prescription drugs from Canada... an illegal activity!!!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774506.post-1143749407642433512006-03-30T15:10:00.000-05:002006-03-30T15:10:00.000-05:00In your earlier post you said that we'd need new b...In your earlier post you said that we'd need new blood to bolster the Social Security as the ratio of workers to retirees is shrinking. Although the SS should have a huge surplus the money has been "borrowed" by the government for other needs... like war and tax breaks for the rich, the fact is that the pay-as-you-go system is in danger of going broke.<BR/><BR/>Shhh, don't tell people that by legalizing those immigrants their fruits & vegies will cost more, and their maids... omigod!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774506.post-1143749104962526792006-03-30T15:05:00.000-05:002006-03-30T15:05:00.000-05:00Most illegal immigrants have lived here for many, ...Most illegal immigrants have lived here for many, many years. They ARE Americans already.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774506.post-1143749028609947802006-03-30T15:03:00.000-05:002006-03-30T15:03:00.000-05:00Although I understand that we can't allow everybod...Although I understand that we can't allow everybody in, we need immigration reform. The cons want the marketplace to decide almost everything. How about this issue? If there are jobs to be filled, then bring in those who want to work, but not keep them illegal so the employers can have a deep labor pool to draw from and keep wages down!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8774506.post-1143748521209250742006-03-30T14:55:00.000-05:002006-03-30T14:55:00.000-05:00My parents came from overseas and from the moment ...My parents came from overseas and from the moment they arrived they became Americans. They didn't stop loving the old country, but having given the oppurtinity to start a new life here, made them fervent patriots. It's what you feel that makes you identify with a country. It's amazing to me that despite the hardships and the discrimination our parents (most immigrants) faced, they became true Americans.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the good points you've made and for focusing on the humane aspect of the issue.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com